naughtygamers
NTHW Gaming Banner

Author Topic: PC Upgrade Time  (Read 532 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MovedGoalPosts

  • Kannon Fodda
  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 3,742
    • Ember Big Band
PC Upgrade Time
« on: 06 March 2021, 08:43: PM »
So the current PC is showing age and potentially going to fall apart.  I've previous threads here the BIOS battery has to be swapped out frequently.  Now the AIO cooler pump is very noisy.  It was all put together 2015, and whilst not overclocked for 2-3 years I ran it virtually 100% loads 24/7 doing distributed computing stuff. It's served me well but times change.

Current system is i7 5820k, Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5P motherboard, 16GB RAM of some sort, 500GB Samsung M2 type SSD on a PCIe Card (motherboard has weird issues with inadequate PCI lanes for the M2 SSD to get decent speed), and further 500GB Crucial SSD, Gigabyte RTX 2070 SUPER WindForce OC 3X GPU (1440p + 1080p monitors), 800W PSU in Phanteks P400S case.  I'd re-use the case, GPU, PSU and at least the Crucial SSD.

You know I'm a lot less into gaming than I was.  Even so the PC must be able to game efficiently for a few years to come, not only if I revert to FPS stuff, but also with some things like Cities Skylines, which ends up needing a fair grunt to track all the little sims activities.

Much of the PC's use at the moment is office work with VPN, Word (often very lengthy reports with embedded photos), and of course Outlook and the obligatory Teams / Zooms stuff.   I also try use of Dragon dictation software, which does run particularly slowly on any of it's analysis to improve speech recognition (not sure if that is CPU or the software being inadequate as task manager doesn't show high loads).  I don't do stuff with video or whatever.

I know Intel are due to release another set of CPUs, but then there is always something new in a few months time.  Need to work with the present.  It does seem the 5000 series AMD CPUs are a decent jump on the previous generation.  The question is whether (despite availability or lack of) the Ryzen 7 5800x would be good, or is the Ryzen 9 5900x just that much better it is a must have?

I'm a bit concerned with the apparent PCI lanes, or lack of.  Current PC, as above, ended up unable to use the M2 SSD properly until it was put onto a different adapter card.  I don't want another motherboard that would create issues.  I'm unlikely to overclock so don't need a flashy MB, but it needs to be versatile enough.  Reasonable onboard sound will suffice for my useless hearing needs.  I'd go with Gigabyte again although I've not got anything specific against them.  I just think that Asus seem to be the better brand, no real justification for that, but I also have a perception (probably no justification) that MSI are more for GPU than CPU.  No idea what, if any the difference is with motherboard chipsets but I think X570 is better?  Presumably the motherboards support the Ryzen 5000 CPUs out of the box.

I do not want blingy RGB everywhere.  Indeed the current P440S case includes metal sides, rather than glass, so I can ignore all the junk inside.  I'm more interested in silent running.

I would consider a larger SSD to replace the M2 one.  Not essential if the current one would work, but would give some head room for junk leaving the second SSD as at present as backup storage.

I rarely see that the current PC is now close to capacity CPU or RAM, (it was fully loaded on both with some distributed computing stuff) but need to future proof.  I suspect good 32 GB RAM would make sense.

Not sure I need another AIO cooler.  Strikes me that especially if not overclocking, and likely to max stuff out for infrequent periods a good air cooler would suffice.  As a stopgap I've ordered a Be-Quiet Shadow Rock 3 to replace the failing AIO, and wonder if that would be enough for the new CPU?

I haven't thought budget, but want value for money rather than the latest expense.  Even so for things like the CPU it seems sensible to look at the current generation if there is a clear advantage of it's performance rather than the slightly older model.

So anyone got any thoughts?  Can I make this as complex as a Rammy build?
uıɐbɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ buıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ɯ,ı

Offline Ramrod

  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 5,629
  • Semi retired :)
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #1 on: 06 March 2021, 11:16: PM »
You could build what Damien and I have. Ours are a year old but are, imo the mutts nutts.
Step by step, walk the thousand mile road...

Offline MovedGoalPosts

  • Kannon Fodda
  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 3,742
    • Ember Big Band
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #2 on: 06 March 2021, 11:51: PM »
I think your systems are based on the 3950X?  I don't see that widely available anymore, probably surpassed by the 5000 series (higher end chips being rarer than my chances of winning a FPS game).  But to be honest I don't think I need anywhere near that number of cores, I'm not using the six (or 12) on the current i7 5820.  I also don't think I can justify the pricing level, especially if you were getting all components to that level.  I know I said I don't have a budget but I'll be taking a very deep breath if I need more than a grand.

What I do see as a difference between say the 5800X and 5900X is the size of the inbuilt L2 cache, as well as the thread count.  But I really don't know if this is going to make a notable performance difference for what I am likely to be doing with the PC to justify added cost and wait to get hold of a chip.
uıɐbɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ buıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ɯ,ı

Offline damien c

  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 2,534
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #3 on: 08 March 2021, 06:38: AM »
Well you could go for either a Ryzen 5600x or a Ryzen 5800x either of them would be fine for gaming, but with the consoles now having basically a slightly lower clocked 5800x, more games will use more cores.

The 5900x could also be a good shout and will give abit more life to the system if used for more than just gaming.

The 5950x is the replacement for the chip that me, Rammy and Paul have and to be honest is overkill for just playing games.

The main thing is that with Ryzen 3000 series CPU's and 5000 series you need to ideally get 3600Mhz ram and as a low a CL as possible within your budget.

You will need a decent AIO for the 5800x and above, whilst Air Coolers will work you would be better with an AIO.

GPU's are where the majority of the budget is going to be spent if you was to build let's say this week as most cannot be purchased at shops and are mainly only available on Ebay for almost double the RRP.

Even at RRP they are getting expensive, you are looking £550 and up.

I would recommend either a nVidia 3070 or a AMD 6700 or 6800.

If you went nVidia then an EVGA or MSI card would be my choice, and if you went AMD then Powercolour Red Devil type or a MSI or also a Sapphire Toxic variant.

When I finish work I could mock up a few build's but they will include everything.

Offline MovedGoalPosts

  • Kannon Fodda
  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 3,742
    • Ember Big Band
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #4 on: 08 March 2021, 09:52: AM »
Thanks for your thoughts Damien

My sensible head says that the 5800X is the sweet spot, and doesn't seem to have some availability.  The 5900X would be really nice but is very scarce and would cost a lot more.  But generally with the supply problems that AMD have been having since launch of these CPUs I think that pricing overall is too high and whilst I would really like to be able to do this upgrade in practice I need to think carefully and probably should delay.

Having read around a lot over the weekend it seems that the situation may have temporarily reversed between AMD and Intel, primarily due to pricing and supply, that, if buying now, some of the Intel chips are seen as better value.  In the current, released generation, AMD might have a slight edge on performance, some applications, but it appears that Intel may also have the edge in others.  This can depend on whether you're looking at single thread or multithreaded applications and certainly, but the moment most of the stuff that icing to be doing is more single thread orientated and I'm not sure that even the most modern games I have such as Cities Skylines, or even Battlefield V (which I don't play), or even Elite Dangerous are that multithreaded.  In practice, the more I think about it, the current CPU, is very adequate for what I need and do.

I see that Intel are about to release their latest generation of CPUs.  There is supposed to be a forecast performance in IPC might match the upgrade that AMD achieved with their 5000 series chips, but at the expense of a couple of cores on the CPU.  If Intel get their supply chain correct compared to AMD, it may be that swings the boat back stop I may therefore wait even a month to see what is actually what and where pricing will change reflecting supplier performance.  But there's no point in waiting indefinitely, there is always something new likely to be released by somebody at some time.

This time I wouldn't be changing the GPU, the 2070 super is sufficient.  I'm not sure I would gain a great deal, even if the Nvidia 3000 series was readily available, and there's no point in incurring the expense of the real top end cards for what I'm actually doing.

If I do go with the AMD chips, I'm not sure whether to go with the B550 chipset or the X570.  The X570 seems to offer higher future PCIe  4 M2 slots for SSD's but will also be more costly and may have less other connectivity.  I do present need quite a few USB connections as the computers being used for work and so this all sorts of things plugged in.  The B550 chipset motherboards still allow a single PCIe 4 M2 SSD, often with a further second slot would only run at PCIe 3, which still seems more than adequate since the M2 PCI E3 drives are reasonable-ish pricing and to me seem of more than adequate speed.  The B550 chipset boards are cheaper, overall, and have an advantage that few of them have any of the silly on-board cooling fans that the X570 chipset needs for its connectivity under load.  I think with the 5800 X CPU the B550 chipset is sufficient, but if incurring the added expense of the 5900 X CPU then the X570 starts to make a better overall choice to balance the overall performance.  I suspect my preferred choice will be the Asus ROG Strix B550-F gaming.

It does seem the best memory speeds are now the 3600 DDR4 units.  You can go faster seems, for normal performance, that 3600 is a reasonable balance.

Honing in on a lot of this I suspect if I do upgrade, on current pricing level, I can come in with a budget of under £1,000 if I did a 5800X based system, is at present I need the CPU, motherboard, RAM and probably a cooler as everything else will get reused including the current M2 SSD and GPU and PSU.  If I splash out to a 5900 X based system, simply due to the added performance, corresponding components would need upgrade and worryingly that may push the budget much closer to £1,500 which I don't think I can currently justify.



uıɐbɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ buıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ɯ,ı

Offline damien c

  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 2,534
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #5 on: 08 March 2021, 03:19: PM »
Attached is what I would look at if going AMD.


If you go Intel just be ready to add a between £500 to £1500 for a new PSU, Custom Watercooling loop and potentially PSU.

Intel CPU's are running stupidly hot, the 10900K (10 Core) requires a minimum of a 240mm AIO and Intel has collaborated with different cooling manufacturers to bring to market a AIO with a TEC plate to reduce the temp's of the CPU's.

Intel's latest CPU has had to be reduced to 8 cores because if it was a 10 core, it would not be cooled by conventional methods, you would need to buy a Cooling Pot and bottles of Liquid Nitrogen to cool it.

There latest CPU has already been reviewed publicly despite not being available to purchase till the end of the month and review NDA's of the end of the month because a retailer has already sold them.

The 11700K which is not the top CPU has been tested and runs at a cool 104c drawing nearly 300w of power at stock speed, meaning you will need at least a 1KW PSU to run it, because you will need a 350W TEC Cooler to run it in your system.

Honestly Intel is not worth considering until they get the temp and power issues resolved, which is why AMD has took such a upsurge in purchases by people.

Offline MovedGoalPosts

  • Kannon Fodda
  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 3,742
    • Ember Big Band
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #6 on: 08 March 2021, 04:24: PM »
Thanks Damien looks like I need to steer clear of Intel then unless I want some big energy bills.

Interesting you are pointing towards a 360 mm AIO cooler.  It does look like the Arctic Liquid brand is currently out of stock in many locations.  Currently I only have a 240 mm AIO and given the TDP of the current AMD CPU is less than the Intel I currently run, older thought cooling needs would be the same or perhaps slightly less.  Even with pump failing on the current system in general use temps are staying below 40°.  To be honest fitting a 360 mm radiator in the case would become a squeeze.

Perhaps I should have bought the CPU at the weekend.  Overclockers did have it on a one day special at just under 400 quid for the 5800X.  Perhaps supply of that chip is becoming more plentiful that some prices will drop so I may sit and bide my time for a couple weeks to see what happens.

At least, overall, it does look like I can keep to a "affordable" budget if I build around the 5800X.
uıɐbɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ buıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ɯ,ı

Offline Ramrod

  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 5,629
  • Semi retired :)
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #7 on: 08 March 2021, 06:27: PM »
Just had a look, the 5950x is sold out everywhere!  :o
Step by step, walk the thousand mile road...

Offline MovedGoalPosts

  • Kannon Fodda
  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 3,742
    • Ember Big Band
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #8 on: 08 March 2021, 07:54: PM »
5950X and 5900X are both in very short supply.  Reports on the web say that AMD's manufacturing capacity is being stretched and they've been prioritising their contracts for the consoles -Playstation, Xbox, both new models also being in very high demand - so the Consumer CPU has taken a bit of a hit.  Ultimately AMD have been getting all the plaudits in the last year or two, compared to Intel and AMD are now reaping the whirlwind.

Real question is that whether due to short supply the 5900X, if it can be bought, has an inflated price and will drop in say 2-3 months time, by any significant margin.  This weekend OcUK had the 5800X on "offer" for a nudge under £400, but now back up to the £430 level on a par with most elsewhere.  But that means the 5800X supply is becoming balanced with demand.

My head says that, even though more costly, I should have a 5900X for longevity, compared to the 5800X, even though I don't need it's power now.  If I do this upgrade It is going to have to last a good few years and if multithreading of games and stuff is finally really going to come alive as consoles have caught up, then headroom of the extra cores of the 5900X will make sense.

After chatting with Damien on Discord, I'm definitely going to have to look carefully at the cooler, and what can fit in my case.  The P440S is fairly slender so air coolers risk hitting the case side without enough clearance.  But there are also limits for any radiator placement.  I really don't want a bigger case, I'm trying to get more compact to give me better desk space, and now you don't need voluminous capacity for HDDs and even optical drives, plus I'm not overclocking so don't need full blown watercooling, the midi case should have been OK.

I think what we are seeing here is that I'm capable of prevaricating as much as Ramrod. but I refuse to allow this thread to get as long as his build missives.
uıɐbɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ buıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ɯ,ı

Offline MovedGoalPosts

  • Kannon Fodda
  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 3,742
    • Ember Big Band
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #9 on: 09 March 2021, 11:06: PM »
Fitted the replacement air cooler - Be-quiet Shadow Rock 3.  Literally a millimetre's clearance in the case.  At stock idle on the i7-5820k CPU is hovering at 29° to 30° :tu:

Shows how bad the AIO 240mm rad and pump had become.  Undoubtedly there had been a lot of evaporation of the liquid over the last 6 years, far too much gurgling as I tilted the rad back and forth as I took it out of the case.  Not really an advert for AIO cooler's for long term use.

I hear what you are saying Damien about CPUs needing some headroom, especially under load so the TDP isn't really the judge for a cooler, it's how it deals with the load wattage, and even hot spots on the CPU.  Even so this is about as big an Air Cooler that seems to fir the case.  Fans are barely audible at the moment so I'm going to be tempted to fit it to any upgrade and see what happens rather than look at another AIO.

I really don't want a bigger case to fit a bigger cooler, so if I do have to go AIO 240mm rad will have to suffice.
uıɐbɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ buıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ɯ,ı

Offline Gottu

  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 381
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #10 on: 10 March 2021, 12:00: PM »
Rob if you get a taller air cooler you could just drill holes in the case and turn the whole case into a heat dissapater  :D :D

Offline MovedGoalPosts

  • Kannon Fodda
  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 3,742
    • Ember Big Band
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #11 on: 10 March 2021, 12:57: PM »
Easier just to leave the side off the case than take a Dremel to it.  And the idea is to actually hide my untidy build skills and be able to ignore any rather annoying flashing LED bling that seems ubiquitous with PC stuff these days.
uıɐbɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ buıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ɯ,ı

Offline damien c

  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 2,534
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #12 on: 10 March 2021, 02:01: PM »
As I said you can try it on the new CPU when you eventually get round to upgrading and see how it's performs.

If it keeps you current chip cool whilst using the pc for what you normally do then it should cope with the new one as well.

I finally got round to fitting the Noctua NH-D15 properly to my 2nd machine this morning and knocked almost 15c of the temps, as I bodged it to fit previously because I didn't have the correct mounting hardware.

Currently sat converting some video's and now I need to look at going to 64GB of ram in my main machine, and then also I need to look at getting a couple of new CPU's for the PC's and stuff like that.

I better start saving  :'(

Offline MovedGoalPosts

  • Kannon Fodda
  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 3,742
    • Ember Big Band
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #13 on: 10 March 2021, 02:19: PM »
64GB of RAM is insane.  In practice I'm struggling to see an application that would use up the 16GB, so 32 would be plenty of headroom.
uıɐbɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ buıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ɯ,ı

Offline damien c

  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 2,534
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #14 on: 10 March 2021, 02:33: PM »
Record a video with OBS in MKV format and then convert it with VLC to MP4 format, these video files are anything from 50G to 150G.

Just priced up 2 PC upgrades mine and my dad's and it came out to £3500 for just cpu's, boards, coolers, ram, ssd's and fans.

Offline MovedGoalPosts

  • Kannon Fodda
  • [NTHW] Clan
  • *
  • Posts: 3,742
    • Ember Big Band
Re: PC Upgrade Time
« Reply #15 on: 19 March 2021, 09:46: AM »
I've come to the conclusion that the 5900X CPUs won't be available for some time.  It's a tad more than I really need but for longevity, if they were selling at normal prices the added cost of the 5900X over the 5800X makes it a better deal.

I'm also seeing a few reports that the 5800X can spike in temperatures, irrelevant of the cooler used, as effectively everything gets compacted into a small part of the chip.  Something to do with the architecture that effectively all the CPUs are similar just that the 5800 only uses one of the pair of core complexes?

So meanwhile I've splashed the cash on a bigger M2 type SSD - 2TB WD Blue NVMe type.  Looking at the overall specs, it's fractionally faster than the current Samsung M2 SSD I've had since 2015.  That 500GB SSD I'll move into my 2016 gaming capable laptop which as the current M2 SSD in there is one of the first generation SATA speed M2's will produce a boost.

I did look at the faster WD Black M2 SSDs, but the 2TB price was some £100 more than the blue for what I thought would be something I wouldn't appreciate in speed unless I wanted to get out the stopwatch.  I rarely move large multi gig files, it's more storage capacity when I'm moving away from using a separate NAS.  The current PC case doesn't offer much space for older mechanical style HDDs (unless I mount a 2.5" laptop style thing) as I removed the rack to enable the GPU to fit comfortably.  When I can upgrade the CPU / motherboard, at that stage, perhaps, the PCIe 4 M2 SSDs will be "affordable", so with the modern boards having 2 M2 slots, I'd get a moderate PCIe 4 SSD and use the 2TB blue in the second slot.
uıɐbɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ buıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu ɯ,ı

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2021, SimplePortal